[Donna]

The dog doesn’t learn respect, you earn it!

I must say I am surprised to read your message on Robert Cabral’s site because it seems you’ve joined without actually learning anything from his extensive resources!

I suggest you stop everything you are doing with this dog because it’s already going in the wrong direction! This poor puppy is going to end up seriously hurting you or worse someone else!

A crate is NEVER USED FOR “PUNISHMENT“. It’s a safe place for your dog to chill and be left in peace until he is needed for training, exercise, play etc.

The first thing you need to learn is about resource guarding. Malinois have a habit of this type of behavior and if not addressed can lead to aggression (you’ve already got to this point) Robert has very good videos on how to deal with this behavior. Go look now!

Once you sorted out this issue. You can move on to basic training. Every puppy needs basic training and socialization. Build new skills ONLY once your puppy had accomplished the first, then revisit old skills to keep fresh and well tuned.

Keep training fun and short. You end the session not the dog. Do not repeat an instruction, it falls on deaf ears, especially with a malinois. Get your dog’s interest with a toy, ALWAYS REWARD GOOD BEHAVIOR within seconds of it being achieved. Make it fun. Your dog isn’t a slave to do your bidding in the hope suddenly it will respect you!

Respect is a two way street!

Follow Robert’s puppy classes before your poor dog has to be put down because of your own insecurities.

[Kamil]

Don’t jump to conclusions so fiercely, because you don’t have the slightest clue of what I did with him leading up to this point. And clearly, you have no idea how much material I have processed already even though I’m only here for 2 or 3 weeks.

I started coming here late because I didn’t know this site existed, but before that, I was already working with my dog every day. I also hired a professional trainer because my dog is extremely reactive. Since I felt like I needed more expertise, I eventually found my way here. Since I’ve been here, I’ve completely reworked our daily routine and I see tons of progress every day. I’m addressing issues here that I never managed to tackle before because there were many others to work with first.

If you didn’t ignore half of what I said, you would understand that I didn’t use the crate as a punishment even once. I worked for the crate training to be a success, and I don’t want to ruin it. I’m just thinking out loud, and that’s what discussions are for.

[Kamil]

Feel free to correct me, but I don’t think what I described is resource-guarding. This is because I have been addressing this behavior since he came to our home, and I continue to do so even though he doesn’t seem to need it. I have no problem taking his toy or his food while he eats – in fact, I never did.
What he’s doing, in my opinion, is pushing boundaries. He deliberately provokes me to see what happens. It’s more about asserting dominance rather than resource-guarding. But hey, I’m an amateur, so I might be wrong. That’s why I’m trying to learn.

[BillM]

Wow! This is one of the poorest responses I’ve seen from a member on this site. Everyone has a bad day and I hope that was the motivation behind this post. My question is how does a berating like this help anyone? Did it make you, Donna, feel better? Because I guarantee it did nothing to help the OP. Come on…we can do better than this

[Kamil]

Redirecting my dog (when he misbehaves) doesn’t work all that well. Someone suggested that using a house line might be helpful. Do you think a slip leash would work just as well? I don’t want my dog to have to drag a leash around everywhere.

[Katrin]

He is a Malinois! Biting, fighting, defending himself in unpleasant ways… that’s his nature. If you push him, he jumps back… that’s total normal behaviour. It has nothing to do with a lack of respect, he doesn’t understand that pushing him off the couch means please stay down. Here could a short house line help you. No slipleash, he can get stuck with it.

Are you sure the dog understands your training? It sounds like you have communication difficulties. Don’t take it the wrong way, but it sounds like you’re not assessing his behavior correctly and are reacting incorrectly. I hope, it is not your first dog. If so, find someone to support you.

Does he know “Out” and “stay”? It’s always better to tell him what to do, instead of telling him what to stop doing.

Respect from a young dog can be gained through calmness, confidence and good instruction.

[Kamil]

Short house line, no slipleash, got it! Thanks.

It is my first time owning a dog, and even though I have been around dogs my whole life, I am very cautious with corrections because I know this breed is sensitive to overcorrection. I try to think before I act, and I am always trying to improve. I am careful with him, but I should be more firm, I just lack experience. I do have help from a trainer, but my trainer can’t live with me obviously, so we can only focus on some things with him. There is still so much that I need to figure out myself daily. He definitely understands my training; he’s incredibly smart. He also understands to get off the couch when asked, he simply, sometimes, chooses not to. 😅

“Respect from a young dog can be gained through calmness, confidence, and good instruction.”
Thank you.

[Cameron]

A mal is a handful, even for an experienced handler, but with dedication nothing is impossible.

I respect your attitude toward correction and I agree with it. In the absence of experience, use caution. In my example, you start with a milder correction and if the dog keeps breaking the behaviour, you increase the pressure. The dog will tell you when you get it right – he’ll stop breaking the behaviour! You may have to give what you consider a severe correction, but you should only have to do it very few times. What is severe to you, may not be to him. My reactive boys thresholds for everything are way higher than my other dog.

Another thing to keep in mind is that thresholds change depending on circumstance. Using ecollar for example. In your back yard, you might use a level 3 (of 18 on my collar) and get results, but in a park around other dogs, that could go much higher. I’ve used ecollar to help with an out, and level 5 will get her outing a tug in the yard. A decoy that’s not moving (ie when we’re practicing out and keeping adrenaline low) might be an 8/9. If the decoy runs at her or away from her, the level is higher than I will stim a dog to out (I don’t want negative feelings on a bite that may make them hesitate), so I have to lift off (and then keep working).

Mals seem to be all over the place when it comes to corrections. The more engaged or amped up, the easier they blow off corrections. Keep that in mind. You’ll get the hang of it quicker than you think, just don’t go overboard.

[Cameron]

Kamil, you’ll find responses like this everywhere in dog training. Some have bits of helpful information others are just vitriol. I stopped posting here for this reason.

Despite the poor tone, Donna was correct that you need to earn the dogs respect. I’m not saying you haven’t tried, or even that you’re not on your way. Having the dog respect you isn’t something that happens overnight, and with a puppy its something you need to keep proving as they get older and bolder.

Using your couch example, he keeps getting on the couch despite you not wanting it. This is likely because his desire for it exceeds the correction he gets from it. It could also be that the interaction of him getting up and the attention he gets from you scolding him is still better than not doing it.

The foundation of the dogs I train is the down stay. It’s simple but valuable and helps in situations like this. I start the same way everybody does. Lead the dog to the bed and down them and reward, increasing duration and leaving the dog, then sending the dog and increasing duration and distance and moving to intermittent reward. Pretty standard stuff.

Where handlers start to differ is what they do when the dog breaks the stay, and they will – especially a malinois puppy! If you say NO and gently lead them back, put them in a down, say good boy and reward them, what happened is he trained you to reward him! There was no consequence for breaking the stay, in fact he was rewarded for it.

I use dominant dog collars almost exclusively, especially for this kind of thing. If the dog breaks the stay and runs away, I SLOWLY approach the dog without saying anything. Be patient, if they’re running, DO NOT chase because that’s a game and a reward. When you get the leash, apply pressure up and SLOWLY walk back to the bed. Very slowly. This walk back should be unpleasant. Put them in a down and give a final leash correction with NO STAY and walk away. Don’t wait too long before returning and rewarding lavishly.

If they break the down again, he just told you that your correction wasn’t enough because the crime was worth the punishment. Repeat the correction but apply more pressure, let him walk on his tip toes and walk even slower and apply a stronger correction when they’re back in the down. Walk away, but don’t wait too long before returning and rewarding lavishly.

Never apply corrections when you’re frustrated. Mals are quite sensitive and some are extremely handler sensitive. My trial dog is an absolute monster on the field but if I raise my voice, she shuts down. When working obedience in the presence of a decoy, I can use leash corrections until my arm fell off and she’ll blow it off. The ecollar is a little more effective but not nearly as effective as rasing my voice. The only corrective words in my down stay example that I use is “NO STAY” (because its the stay they broke). I say it clearly but not yelling and with no anger. I want them to associate the correction with the behaviour they broke.

Use these same measures to keep them off the couch. Ideally, you have a dog bed in the room and teach them that when in this room, they must go to the bed and stay there unless you release them or they hear something unexpected (I will have somebody go outside and pretend to try to break in, the dog will break the stay and investigate and I will reward that to teach them that it is acceptable to break the stay for this).

Any correction that does not stop a behaviour, reinforces it.

Keep it up. Raising a mal, especially your first, is a learning experience. You’ll have ups and downs, but they are incredibly rewarding to train and the bond between a well trained malinois and their handler is stronger than any other (in my obviously biased opinion).

You may also have a higher drive dog and are not working them enough. Mals especially need mental stimulation. I recommend scent work for mals. They’re good at it, and because of their leap before you look mentality, it’s quite possible your dog will be injuring in it’s life time and you need something low impact to occupy them as they recover. Scent work can do that. It can be as simple as using some fresh herbs in a cup and hiding it in a room, or make some scent boxes and make them indicate on the correct one. Do scent work at meal time, feeding when they indicate. It’s fun – and cool to show off when your friends are around.

Finally, to the inevitable hateful comments that come to me: Save your time, I don’t care. If you don’t like my method, don’t use it. If you have something constructive, even if it’s pointing out my mistakes, please share. The day I think I know it all is the day I accept mediocrity.

[Michael]

Big thumbs up.. thanks for sharing!

[Kamil]

Your response is the reason I love being here. It’s only my second post, and once again I’m greeted with a perfect, informative response.

I’ve already read it, but since I’m not a native English speaker, I might need to read it a few times more to get the most out of it. Your method seems very strict, but fair at the same time. I’ll need to go through it a couple more times to ensure I understand it well.
Sounds promising though!
Thank you. Every time I receive such a response, I feel motivated to try out new methods 😃

[Bill]

@Cameron416 WOW – FANTASTIC!

@crowley Hats off for stepping in to the situation and your commitment will serve you well…. I echo what Cameron has offered and he is so right, you will get lots of varying “opinions” so simply sift through the chaff and see what you think will work for you and your personality. Robert’s videos are excellent and incremental and it all will take time. Celebrate successes as you go and keep a focus on them. As you and your dog’s successful experiences and celebrations increase, so too will your bond. If you are consistent with your expectations and consequences your dog will trust you. As pack leader, you set the tone. When a dog does not sense there is a leader as defined by canine behavior, the dog may step up to be the leader and then you have a problem.

All the best in your endeavors.

[Kamil]

Thank you for the kind words, Bill!

[Kamil]

Cameron, can I ask you something else? You’ve already been so helpful, and I appreciate it. The more I read from you, the more I need to hear your take on the matter of playing with and touching the dog in the house.

My trainer suggested that I should limit any kind of touching the dog in the house. This doesn’t mean ignoring the dog when he comes up to me, but rather not pursuing and constantly petting the dog all day. Not that I’m doing it all day, but I do pet him, and so is my fiance, he is just a puppy and I want him to feel good around us, especially because our walks/sessions can be very stressful for him sometimes (reactivity). This is supposed to help me with using my touch outdoors, so it would be more meaningful for him. He further said that if Sato knows that he’s getting so much petting from me anyway, my touch is not all that relevant when we’re out, so he doesn’t strive for it.
By touch, I mean that if he’s preoccupied with something else and not listening to me, a simple butt touch should get his attention back on me.
A similar philosophy applies to playing at home. I understand that I shouldn’t engage in play with him, so he’ll be more eager to play once we’re out. At home, he should play by himself. Do you agree with that?

[Cameron]

The touching I was referring to is during training. I’m very affectionate with my dogs and don’t see a problem with it at all. My trial dog is super affectionate. I spend 5 minutes every morning giving her a rubdown and affection and she loves it, but she can never get enough especially during training! During trials we can only reward with praise and affection and she jumps into my arms loving it. So I don’t know if you can be too affectionate.

A possible downside to that may be separation anxiety. My girl is very attached to me, but my lifestyle allows for that. She’s with me almost always. You’d need to judge that in your situation.

Dogs do associate places with activity. If you start playing fetch in the den, he’ll expect to always be able to play fetch in the den. That could be a mistake since you may not be able to relax in your den.

I don’t allow my dogs to self gratify. Their food, toys, treats and fun come from me. I work them 3-5 times a day in addition to a walk. Work sessions are short, at 6 months old, they should be 3-5 minutes long. You want the dog excited and stop the session before they fade, and end on a good note where possible.

At 6 months, I want the dog learning but I want them excited. I incorporate a lot of rewards and play.

Look at protection sport dog trials on youtube and watch their obedience and see how fast the dogs sit or down. It’s amazing! They do it because they’ve learned that the faster they do what the handler wants, the sooner they get what they want.

Here’s a position drill I work with my dogs early. I set the ecollar set to 1 or 2 (I use a Chameleon for reference and 1 is 1miliamp) and I grab a tug that the dog likes. I get them excited and make them miss a few times (tease the dog and pull the tug away just before they get it. They’ll get more excited.) Then say SIT and hit the stim at the same time. When they sit, the stim stops instantly and half a second later I mark it (Yes/Break whatever your terminal marker is) and then reward with the tug and play enthusiastically. This builds drive and speed in the behaviour and the love doing it because they get paid to do it! Repeat this a few times and stop while they’re still super eager. Next time they will start eager and build.

This is how I get explosive, eager behaviour.

My older boy doesn’t care much for physical affection or praise when working. He’s working for his reward, be it food or toy. You can tell him what a good boy he is and he does not care at all. Show him his reward and he’ll start to shake with excitement.

Does your trainer work with a lot of mals? If not, you might want to look for another one. They are different. You don’t need to restrict them from anything so they’ll want to work – they’ll want to work until they drop!

The above drill is fun to work. Add down, stand, do multiple positions. Don’t do too much without reward though! You can use this for focus heeling too. I will get the dog in the heel position on my left side with the tug on the dogs left side. They don’t get it until they make eye contact with me. I get the look and reward. Eventually extending it. I’m prepping for a trial next week and did the entire heeling routine with the tug next to her and she ignored it, knowing that if she looks, she won’t get it. Also knowing it’s there was like dynamite for her and she pranced through the whole routine.

I spend a lot of time working the out (which is second to the down stay to me). I do it with play. Throw a ball or frisbee, whatever they like. They bring it back and don’t want to let go. I say OUT and pull another one (Robert does the live ball/dead ball game in one of his videos) and the one I have is more desirable so they drop it, and as soon as they do, I throw the first ball. Eventually, I take the second ball away. I’ll incorporate a heel, positions, basic stuff and the reward is that I throw the toy. I do this every day, usually in the morning and evening. It’s their fun time, they hardly know they’re training because they’re having fun.

[Gene]

Ok. Let’s go back to square one. You are going to have a hard time training if the puppy doesn’t respect you. Start by having the puppy watch you fix his meal. Then hand feed. When you have the time to hand feed 3X a day do so, the same amount. I use slip leads or a Martingale collar, so I have control. You can remove the slip lead if you are going out. When you are leaving the room it is “let’s go”, he follows he gets a treat, if he happens to sit he gets a treat. I am not asking for it as I don’t want to correct him. You leave the room, “let’s go”, he follows he gets a treat, he looks at you he gets a treat. When he is on the couch it is “let’s go”, he follows he gets a treat etc. Watch the Socialization videos in the puppy section especially Debra & Murrow. In the videos section the first couple with Ellen & Mellow. Also, Robert working with a puppy named Nemo. Notice in these videos there are NO corrections given. It is all about having a good time and building a trusting & loving relationship with your puppy. Th puppies look at the people and follow the people. This is called “Engagement Training”. It used with puppies and shelter dogs, especially the ones that have issues. I don’t think Robert started any serious training/corrections with the Schmoo until 4/5 months. Just a quick note, when a dog is laying on a chair or couch and somebody says “down”, it can sometimes be confusing to the dog as he is already “down”. Instead “off”. RELAX.

[Cameron]

Good advice.

To help clarify because I was confused with terms engagement, respect, etc when I started.

Engagement is needed and I think the OP has good engagement from what he says and he is hand feeding. Without engagement, you have nothing. This is step 1.

Respect is often used, but I rarely see the word trust, which is vital in a working dog and important to pet dogs too.

Take a look at Nino’s STSK9 videos. There’s killer engagement, hard to find more engaged dogs anywhere. What you’ll see in many of those videos is the dog being lured. Will the dog perform without the lure or among distraction? I do think Nino himself trains his dogs to work through distraction, but that part gets lost sometimes. I’ve seen followers of his do great things until their treat pouch is empty, then nothing.

Obedience is not optional. If I give a command, the dog must perform it (after having learned it certainly). For example, if one of our dogs is deployed on the street and there is gunfire, and the officer orders the dog to down, it MUST down! If your pet is chasing an animal into the street and you see a car coming, you order it to down, it MUST down!

We use an obstacle course to help with trust. This is not agility, it’s designed that the dog cannot do it alone. It builts the k9/handler team and trust. The dog will fall, and learn to trust that the handler will catch him. If the handler orders the dog through a tunnel, it must go through. We start with bigger tunnels that are easy and get to smaller ones that no dog wants to go through the first time and need a nudge to go, but they’ve established trust in the handler that they can do it (and they trust the handler more at the end).

Something that I find increasingly rare these days is physical manipulation, such as physically manipulating the dog into a down, or heel, etc. At one police k9 certification event, one excercise was carry the dog on your shoulder up a ladder. Many handlers got bit by their own dogs! These are trained police K9’s, but the ones that bit had very little physical manipulation.

[Riggan]

Lots of good comments here! First of all, kudos to you for your commitment to Sato. Not many first time dog owners can handle a Mal, but you are in the right place to learn! There are so many things that come into play here. I’ll try to just cover a few I haven’t seen discussed.

One thing I have not seen in this thread is the difference between training and management. Training falls into 2 general categories for me. First is the short sessions done several times a day when you are specifically teaching the dog skills. This is what most people think of when they think about “training.” But to me, the other category is far more important (at least when the dog is young), takes more time and work, and is what I would loosely term “lifestyle” training. This is teaching the dog what is acceptable and unacceptable in terms of behavior – not skill training. Stay off the furniture would be an example of this kind of training. Others might be not jumping on people; don’t take food (or anything else) from counters; don’t steal my socks or underwear from the closet; etc. The list can go on and on! It is the ground rules for how I want my dog to behave and become a good companion.

Behavior training takes place in all those periods when you are not actively “training” the dog (skill training), but you are still able to keep the majority of your attention on the dog and can intervene before unwanted behavior occurs. Initially, it may take 90-100% of your attention. As the dog starts to learn the rules of the household, it will take less and less focus on your part. This obviously only works when the dog is in the same room as you are, and you are able to quickly (and without having to fight for it) gain control over your dog. The focus is on PREVENTING the unwanted behavior rather than on correcting it.

Skill training and behavior training usually go hand in hand. For the sofa, I might do one or two daily short 5-minute sessions where I am TEACHING the dog what I expect around the sofa. In this, I might be sitting on the sofa and put the dog on a down-stay by my feet. Or I might have the dog on leash, walk up to the sofa, and tell him to Sit (or Down or some other command) before he gets close enough to try to jump on it. If you see him eyeing the sofa, or starting to tense his muscles to jump on it, give a quick NO (neutral, never angry!). You might tell him what you DO want him to do, or even better, if he just turns to look at you (surprised at the NO), reward and praise. A key mistake that new trainers make is to wait until the dog has already DONE the behavior (jumped on the sofa) before correcting. Then, as someone mentioned, if you reward after getting him off the sofa, then you are reinforcing the act of getting on the sofa in the first place. If you STOP the behavior when he first thinks about doing it, but has not actually done it, then the reward is a reward for NOT doing what he was going to do. Does that make sense? I would also be teaching both an UP and OFF command, using a bench, platform, or something other than the sofa.

The behavior training happens when you are close by, but not directly interacting with the dog. Your attention, however, is secretly on him. For example, you might be sitting on the sofa reading a book (but secretly watching him as he approaches). Again, as soon as you see him eyeing the sofa or looking like he WANTS to jump on it, firmly tell him OFF. If he diverts his attention, praise profusely. If he does jump on it, calmly reach over (or walk over if you are not on the sofa), pick up the leash, and in a neutral tone, tell him “OFF.” If he gets off, calmly tell him “Good Off” and continue with whatever you were doing. If he does NOT get off, tell him NO, wait a second, then give a pop on the leash (see Robert’s videos on how to give fair corrections) and again tell him OFF. If he still does not get off, your correction was not firm enough. You will have to learn what the right level of correction is for your dog. Do NOT keep repeating the command without a correction! By using the leash, you avoid triggering his play / prey drive and can prevent the biting behavior. It puts you in control. As soon as he gets off, praise but do not give any type of treat. In behavior training, you want to be able to prevent the behavior at least 80% of the time. Otherwise, you risk it becoming a game to the dog to see what he can get away with. The key is that the dog is learning what you expect, even when you are seemingly not paying any attention to him and are active doing other things around the house. But this occurs in tiny steps.

When you cannot give the dog the required attention / supervision, then you use “Management.” Here, you set the dog up for success by putting them in a situation where they CANNOT fail. The crate is a perfect example of management. A dog in a crate can’t get on the sofa. For me, young dogs have to earn their freedom around the house. Although there are frequent breaks and time for engagement, there is also a lot of crate time until they are trustworthy around the house. There are other ways to manage as well. For example, if the dog tends to get in the garbage can, put the garbage in a closet or with a tight fitting lid so they can’t get into it. (I will then later do specific training to TEACH the dog not to take garbage, but removing the can is a way to manage the environment so that he can’t fail and reinforce bad behavior.)

The other thing that stood out to me in your post is that you are “asking” multiple times before escalating to a correction. This just tells the dog (especially one that might have a harder, more dominant personality to begin with) that THEY are the one to be respected, not you. I always have a short leash (without any type of loop on it to get caught on things) on young dogs when they are loose in the house.

Finally, at 6 months old you are entering the teenage period. This is when dogs will constantly be testing their limits. The key is patience, firmness, and consistency. We can give you suggestions here, but you are the only one who can really assess what is going on with your dog. Spend time studying him, learning to “read” his signals so you know what he is thinking and about to do before he does it. Build a relationship of trust and fairness with him. Learn his personality – is he a pushy, dominant dog, or a soft, timid one? You say he is reactive. What is causing that? Is it fear? Aggression? Overexuberance and desire to play? There is nothing more rewarding than developing a true partnership with your dog. The Malinois has been bred to also long for this partnership. Your challenge will be making sure that Sato wants to look to YOU for leadership rather than expecting you to follow his lead. It sounds like you are up to that challenge, though!

Best of luck to you and Sato.

Riggan