teaching stay out of kitchen, stay on bed and stay away from a person

  • teaching stay out of kitchen, stay on bed and stay away from a person

     Mary updated 1 week, 1 day ago 6 Members · 18 Posts
  • Mary

    Member
    December 23, 2021 at 2:15 AM

    I have a 3 month old German Shepherd mix. I am trying to teach her to stop putting her paws on the counters in the kitchen. I specifically want her to stay on her bed in the living room just off the kitchen when we are in the kitchen (she can see us from the bed.)

    So far what I am doing is saying no when she puts her paws on the counter and sort of removing her with my body, and then I am doing positive reinforcement when she is on the bed.

    When I try to formally train her to stay on the bed she will stay as I back away put then once I come back and give her the treat she just jumps off the bed. am I doing this right and she needs more time, or could I improve my training? i am thinking that I am the problem because she is extremely smart. she is also high energy but she goes out a lot and I play with her a lot in the house.

    I also need her to teach her to leave my 14 yr old autistic son alone when he is out of his room. my son is having trouble complying with my advice to just stay still and ignore her because he is intellectually disabled. so he just keeps moving his feet around to get them away from her and of course she thinks its a game. my son says he likes the dog but clearly he does not want to interact with her at all, so for now I am telling her no and keeping her away from him with management (sometimes leash, sometimes crate) and sometimes distracting her with play. its extremely important that I teach her to stay clear of him because I wont be able to manage this always. at this point I feel like I am having to crate her too often but I dont have a choice because if i let her bother him he wont come out and eat and he could eventually kick her or something which would be terrible and mean I might not be able to keep her.

    any help would be appreciated!

  • Ed (RoninDog)

    Member
    December 23, 2021 at 5:41 AM

    A lot of different questions, I would ask Robert in the AMA. With us at 3 month Vlad would climb onto the dining room table and attempt to counter surf. I would remove him physically, tell him “off” and use spatial pressure. With the invisible barriers (kitchen), I just tell him to stay back and either push him back or use spatial pressure to move him back. It takes a few repetitions. I never taught “place”, they only know to go where I point, but there is no permanence. I’m now thinking of teaching place to increase drive and recall. Robert has a great lesson on place (the part 1 video). On your son I would claim him. So every time the dog approaches him I would remove the dog if necessary and use spacial pressure to create an invisible barrier between the dog and him. I like to remove/move the dog with my hands or legs as opposed to the leash, but I don’t really have an explanation as to why I prefer that. Maybe someone can discuss both options. I kind think touch is more organic/dog-like. It is a lot of stuff, but I’m sure that if you break it into individual pieces it will be manageable and you will have a lot of success!

    EDIT: whenever I give a negative feedback to the dig I try to remember to praise as soon as he complies, which could be simply stop trying to get back on the counter at that moment.

    • Ed (RoninDog)

      Member
      December 23, 2021 at 5:56 AM

      I would use “off” as a command for the dog to stay away from your son. Same for the counter, same for jumping on people, same for mounting another dog. I think the way Robert uses the “no” is to mean “this is your last chance to do what you already know how to do” before a correction.

  • Mary

    Member
    December 23, 2021 at 5:53 AM

    hi and thanks for your reply. when you say spatial pressure does that basically mean blocking with your body? i am a new member and i am just starting to watch the videos so i dont want to ask a question to robert until i have seen all the content. so happy i found this site because i was watching all types of videos willy nilly on youtube and becoming overwhelmed. i really need one particular approach to follow and this site is so the perfect thing for me!

    • Ed (RoninDog)

      Member
      December 23, 2021 at 6:00 AM

      Yes. It is kind of manipulating their body without physical contact by moving yours accordingly. Welcome aboard!

    • Ed (RoninDog)

      Member
      December 23, 2021 at 7:13 AM

      Oh. At 3 months it may not be realistic to expect her to stay in the “place” location, not sure about invisible barriers either. The crate would be the easy, less conflict, less stress, solution for a young pup.

  • Gerard

    Member
    December 23, 2021 at 11:32 AM

    Hi Mary , yes he is young so don’t expexpct perfection for a while .

    I think to work on teaching the out command would be good .

    The out for my dog means get away from whatever he is focusing on at the time .

  • Takoda

    Member
    December 23, 2021 at 2:50 PM

    Use the crate for now as Ed mentioned. As for the Place she is too young to be expected to remain there for an extended period of time. However, you can work on the command so she knows where her Place is. Watch the Place Video. Get her in her Place with treats. After a few seconds approach and give her a treat while in her place, then release her. The treat is given while in her Place not after you release her. She is being rewarded for remaining in place. When you release her it is no big deal the reward is her freedom.

    I would definitely have your son interact with the puppy every day. Have your son feed her, hand feed if he is comfortable with that. Give her treats, go on walks along with you. By keeping her away from him and she is trying to play or show affection it can frustrate the dog as she doesn’t understand. Have her sit between you and your son on the couch or have her sit at his feet while he is sitting down. Have him be around the dog as much as possible under your supervision. The dog may even calm down when around your son as they can sense that something is different. I have seen dogs that can see play with a blind dog and they can sense something is different and play in a much gentler way.

    • Mary

      Member
      December 24, 2021 at 2:30 AM

      Hi Takoda and thanks so much for your message and thoughtful feedback. However now I am a bit confused because I just watched a video of Robert’s about stay that made me think I should only reward once the stay was released. Maybe it’s the difference between stay and place? Or maybe its that he was working with Goofy in the video who is a well-trained adult rather than a puppy.

      In terms of having the dog interact with my son, of course it would be great for the dog, but not necessarily for my son. He is not typical at all, and although he says he likes the dog and is fine with us keeping the dog, he clearly does not want to pet her or be around her at all. This morning while he was eating at the table I was holding her back sitting next to me on the floor, but he can’t serve himself and he asked for me to get him something. I felt I had to put her in her crate because had I let her go to go serve him she would have started jumping on him and nipping at his feet and he would most likely have gone back into his room.

      I did not get the dog as a companion for my son. I looked into that with organizations that train dogs as companions for autistic kids and they told me he would not pass their screening evaluation because for the relationship to be useful the child has to show a certain amount of interest in the dog. I got the dog as a companion for myself, because single mom to a severely impaired child is a bit of a hard gig and extremely isolating. The idea is really for my relationship with the dog (and my walking in nature with the dog) to help keep me in a good head space, which by extension is obviously beneficial for my son. That is why I think my emphasis for now should be on teaching the dog to just basically ignore my son if possible, so he can move around the house as he wishes without her bothering him. Then maybe some sort of relationship might develop but my intuition tells me that trying to force a relationship is a bad idea.

      • Riggan

        Moderator
        December 24, 2021 at 12:34 PM

        Mary,

        Welcome to the group and Merry Christmas! You have a challenging and unique situation with your son. I think I would approach it in a very similar fashion to training a dog to leave the family cat alone. It will take time and close supervision on your part, though. Your dog is just a puppy and will need to mature quite a bit before you can expect him to understand. I would raise your puppy the same way I would a potential service dog – all good things come from you; other people, dogs, etc are essentially irrelevant. You want to socialize your pup enough that he is not afraid of others, but the good stuff only comes from you. Your son needs to be seen as a member of the household who is important to you but has no relevance to the dog. When your son is out, have the puppy in the kennel. It sounds like you have plenty of time with the pup in general, so don’t worry about having him in the kennel too much. Make sure he has some chew toys, stuffed Kong, or something else to keep him occupied in the crate. You want him to view the crate as a good place to be. Have the crate where he sees you interacting with your son so he learns it is OK for him to just chill out while stuff is going on with your son. This also includes tantrums and melt-downs, if your son is prone to those. As you mentioned, though, it is absolutely imperative that you make sure your dog is ALWAYS safe from your child. That includes disturbing the dog when he is in the crate. So, you might need to do a balancing act in terms of where the crate is located. Or maybe have 2 crates – one where the dog can see all the activity taking place and one that is in a protected location if your son if dealing with frustration or anger issues that might get taken out on the dog. If your son is calm and engaged in other things himself, you might bring the dog out on leash and do some simple obedience with him or just have him practice a down at your side. Keep in mind, though, that it will be some time before you can expect any duration to a down command. Don’t let the dog interact with your son at all. Let him see you interacting with your son. The message will be pretty clear: This is my child, but he has no meaning to you. It is going to be a challenging year for you as you try to manage both a special needs child and a puppy. Be patient both with the puppy and yourself. If you are consistent and fair with everyone involved, you will eventually end up with the partner that you are hoping for. My heart is with you and every parent in this type of situation. It can definitely be exhausting and overwhelming. Hopefully you can get the support you need in training this puppy from Robert and the extremely knowledgeable people here. By all means watch the videos, but don’t necessarily wait to ask questions to Robert until you have gone through them all. He is here to help and is very good.

        I’d like to add one last comment. Hopefully everything will work out for you, your son, and the puppy. If, however, you reach a point where you decide that you have bitten off more than you can chew, don’t beat yourself up. You have enough on your plate trying to help your son! With the work you are doing with the puppy, you would almost certainly be able to find a good home for him. If this happens and you still want a dog to help with your own mental health, you might try looking into a program that could place an emotional support dog with you rather than a service dog for your son. This dog would already be mature and trained. The organization could help make sure that the dog understood to leave your son alone. We’ll hope and pray that things work out with your puppy, but just in case…

        You are in my heart and prayers. Good luck.

        Riggan

        • Mary

          Member
          December 24, 2021 at 2:18 PM

          thanks so much for your lovely message. i spent a bunch of time writing a long reply but then it disappeared when I tried to edit a typo—so disappointing!

  • Ed (RoninDog)

    Member
    December 24, 2021 at 4:40 AM

    You are correct the place and implicit stay are different. Robert teaches the stay as implicit. So you say “sit” and the dog remains in that position until released. Then release and reward. The implicit stay is for a particular position… sit, stand, down. It is for a shorter amount of time as the dog is working (remaining in that position) till released. The place asks for the dog go to and remain in a location, but does not ask for a specific posture. The reward is given while the dog is remaining in that location. Once the place is over you release the dog and there is no additional reward other than the release itself. You can check the perfect sit video lesson for the implicit stay and the place part 1 video lesson for the place. The crate is going to be a great tool. He is gonna have those spurs of energy and there is really no way to curb that other than the crate.

    • Mary

      Member
      December 24, 2021 at 5:03 AM

      Thanks so much for this explanation and also for the video names which I will search and watch now.

  • Bill

    Member
    January 9, 2022 at 3:09 PM

    Hi Mary – I offer for your consideration that perhaps you are most perfectly suited to make all this work and come together. Your ability to observe, monitor and adjust to control external stimuli for your son’s benefit are the same skills you will need to make things work with the addition of the new variable, the dog. While there are myriad ways to train for the results you require for harmony in the household, which will require monitoring and adjusting, I offer that perhaps the most important place to start, considering the various nuances that make your situation quite unique, is what is the overall and immediate behavior(s) required of the dog. “Invite vs. Invade!” Whatever behaviors you address, the overall important and immediate dog behavior that will contribute to harmony in the home is to condition the dog that only when he is invited into any human’s space is he to make contact with the human. Making this a universal behavioral response of the dog removes specific conditioning requirements that only apply to interactions with your son which may be confusing for the dog. I suspect your situation may be compounded if your son does invite the dog into his space and then decides he has had enough and wants the dog to leave – that would be part 2.

    Dogs are brilliant – you can count on the fact that they will generally repeat behaviors that bring reward. They don’t always care whether it is an actual reward or just a human interaction and this is where your patience may get tested.

    Human Dining Time – when humans are eating, dog is either in the crate or once trained, off at a distance. If you are not done training the dog to stay away from the table, crate the dog and there is no conflict. When the last plate leaves the table, my K9 knows its his time to eat and that is the reward for obediently staying away from the table. My K9 has never eaten a meal before humans are done with theirs. He never gets food from the table or the prep area in the kitchen. His feeding routine is once humans are done eating he participates in his feeding by accompanying me to his food source, watching me measuring his meal, walking back to prep area and sitting patiently while I finish the prep, then walking in a heal position to his eating area where he sits and waits for his release to eat without disruption from the human(s).

    Invite vs Invade. Robert’s video on door greetings is something you may find helpful and consider taking it to the next level in that it applies to all greetings and all humans at all times. Reinforcing these good “dog” manners will serve you well.

    Whether your dog is a hard dog or a soft dog will determine your training approach. Hard vs soft refers to how they handle correction. When given a correction does it seem that the dog’s feelings are hurt and they are sulking or looks like they feel bad, OR, do they accept the correction, comply, and move on. Both are trainable though the approach may have some variance.

    I concur, counter surfing simply can’t be tolerated for health and safety reasons. Be consistent, be firm, and vigilant. The more effort you can put into being consistent at the start the more quickly you will see the desired result and consistency you desire and you will soon forget it was an issue. Personally, I do not use physical interaction, I issue a firm, NO! and move on as the dog is learning what is ok and what is not. If you walk in to the kitchen and discover surfing in progress – startle the dog with a very firm no. Some suggest using a can filled with pennies and rattle them to startle the dog – you just need to find what works best for you and your dog which takes me back to where I started, your ability as a mom to monitor and adjust all that you have for your son’s benefit are now applied to finding what works best to get things in line for the dog to fit into that harmony.

    Should you find things getting crazy and so stressful that life is miserable, I echo @rshilsto because as you already know, doing what’s right is not always easy and doing what’s easy is not always right.

    Looking forward to hearing about your progress.

    All the best be yours!

  • Mary

    Member
    January 10, 2022 at 12:44 AM

    Thank you for your message but I’m going to be honest that I feel somewhat insulted that two people now have suggested to me that perhaps I cannot handle having a dog given that I am a single parent with a handicapped child and that I shouldn’t feel bad if I decide to ditch the dog. In fact things are going very well. My dog has been very successful at learning to leave my son alone and stay off the counters. She is also completely potty trained at only four months. And she is having a blast taking walks with me on a 30ft line along the beach and in the forest frolicking happily in deep snow. We already have a very strong bond and taking care of her adds a structure to my life that I find deeply helpful. So I respectfully ask that no-one else tell me not to feel bad if I have to get rid of her because I can’t handle it.

    • Riggan

      Moderator
      January 10, 2022 at 10:42 AM

      Mary, I am so happy to hear that your dog is making such excellent progress and that you have formed such a strong bond. I also apologize if you felt insulted by my comments. That was not my intent. One of the limitations of online forums is that we cannot meet the individuals involved face to face to see first-hand all the dynamics.

      The comment was not about you personally; rather, it is one I always make when I talk with people who are training (or considering training) their own service dog or ESA. Let me explain why (and please note that this is NOT talking about your situation). In my mind, the worst possible outcome is for someone to continue working a dog who, for whatever reason, has clearly shown that he is not suited to the intended purpose. Sadly, I have seen this happen too often because it can be hard for someone who has invested time, energy and love into a dog to be honest with themselves on whether it is working for both them and the dog. In many of these cases, the dog would be far happier being placed in a more suitable loving home. Therefore, we always talked about the potential necessity for re-homing from the very beginning, and then proceeded with all the training and work under the assumption that the dog and job would be a perfect fit. Periodic re-evaluations could then be used to assess whether everything was still moving in the right direction. In all cases, the welfare and happiness of the dog was paramount.

      From what you have said, your pup has come a long way very quickly (btw, what’s her name?) and is already providing much of what you were hoping for. Puppies present us with lots of challenges as well as lots of love and laughs. You are in a great place here to get suggestions on how to handle some of the challenges both from Robert and other members. You sound like an incredibly strong woman, so I have no doubt you will get through the dreaded “teenage” period successfully. Fortunately, the worst aspects don’t last long, and I think all dog owners look back on those puppy years with fondness. Once you get to the other side, you’ll have a loving and loyal partner who may also be able to help you in other unexpected ways. We look forward to celebrating your successes, large and small, with you.

      Best wishes,
      Riggan

      • Mary

        Member
        January 14, 2022 at 2:18 AM

        hi thanks for your response. i did not realize you were looking at it from a service dog training angle. i should not have taken it personally. her name is maya. i named her before joining the site but i was watching dog training videos willy nilly on youtube for a year before getting her. the name maya just came into my head the day after I got her. possibly a coincidence or possibly subconsciously i remembered one of robert’s videos with his maya. she is an awesome dog. so intelligent and fun! and very adapted to the cold environment here for the winter. she came from a very remote northern native community where there are lots of dogs that run a bit wild in all weather. she is german shepherd predominate mixed with lab and husky of some type. she seems to like agility so i will have to search the site for that. also doing great on retrieves in the house.

  • Takoda

    Member
    January 10, 2022 at 12:36 PM

    Congratulations!

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